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Post by Prince Orys Targaryen on Oct 5, 2014 14:16:32 GMT -5
Does anyone else think those airplane bandits were working for Kuvira?
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Post by Varryn Targaryen on Oct 5, 2014 15:22:03 GMT -5
Does anyone else think those airplane bandits were working for Kuvira? Yes, because how would bandits acquire an airplane or keep it fueled/ blah blah blah. Definitely Kuvirian tactics. |
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Post by The Gambler on Oct 6, 2014 2:06:57 GMT -5
Just finished rewatching TLA. Is is weird that I kind of feel bad or Korra now? I mean, in terms of shit to deal with, he might have had it worse considering the shitstorm after shitstorm she's had to face in her short time as avatar. I like to imagine all her past lives sitting around going "man we had it easy."
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Post by Prince Orys Targaryen on Oct 6, 2014 4:11:35 GMT -5
Just finished rewatching TLA. Is is weird that I kind of feel bad or Korra now? I mean, in terms of shit to deal with, he might have had it worse considering the shitstorm after shitstorm she's had to face in her short time as avatar. I like to imagine all her past lives sitting around going "man we had it easy." I don't think so. How many innocent people did Amon, Unalaq, or the Red Lotus kill compared to the Fire Nation? How long did it take her to defeat any of these threats? (NOT 61 episodes) Aang starts with a novice waterbender and a guy with a boomerang. Korra starts with the White Lotus, an Airbending master, and two probenders who are already top of their game. It takes Aang 26 episodes to find a third companion, who doesn't suddenly put Aang in the life of luxury, unlike Asami. The Gaang doesn't even have a BED to start with, and spends the entire series on the run, minus a brief period where they're living under the thumb of the Dai Li. Aang also can't just call the cops when he's in trouble. And finally, Aang still only knows one element. Korra starts with three. So when you take into account the homelessness, limited resources, and far nastier threat, no, I don't feel that bad for Korra. If Amon had decided to pull a Sozin and just KILL the Airbenders instead of debending them with a conveniently reversable technique, or if Unavaatu had lasted more than ten minutes, or God forbid, the Red Lotus murder someone who the audience didn't already hate, then there might be a valid comparison... but I don't see it. |
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Post by The Gambler on Oct 6, 2014 16:02:18 GMT -5
Number of episodes aside, Aang defeated the fire lord in the course of a year and it was basically an automatic win button once he went into the avatar state. Im not trying to understate the threat of Ozai. By himself what he and his predecessors accomplished was worse than any other villain, but it was because they had the majority of their rein without an avatar to worry about, but the results if the others succeeded would have been worse: no more benders, a 10,000 year apocalypse, or worldwide anarchy. Combined, I think the 3 threats (4 now with Kuvira) add up to far worse than Ozai, especially considering 2 of them beat the shit out of her while she was in the avatar state. It's less the ease with which they were defeated than their overall threat. Avatar antichrist beats fire hitler in overall threat level, regardless of the speed at which he was defeated. Especially considering the only reason the problem existed in the first place was because Aang ran away and got himself frozen for a century. He didn't have to deal with the majority of his crisis because he spent the worst of it asleep in an ice bubble.
Aang just had 1 rough year and the rest of his career seemed pretty tame until Yakone. Korra had 3 massive threats, a 3 year break, and now has to contend with another. Defeating the avatar antichrist alone should trump what all the rest accomplished, including Aang. Yet that was just the tip of the iceberg for her and now she has to do it without any guidance from her past lives.
There's little chance this isn't the most dangerous avatar cycle to date. Roku and Kyoshi are probably thanking their lucky stars they didn't have it so rough. This isn't the "who is the better avatar?" contest because that's obvious. It's which avatar got the short end of the stick regarding shit they had to deal with and villains that were a threat to a fully realized avatar. Ozai wasn't a threat to an avatar in the avatar state. Hell, they even mentioned that Iroh could have beaten him. Unalaq and to a lesser extent Zaheer were a threat to a fully realized avatar and Unalaq at least couldn't have been stopped by anyone else.
Also while we're calling Korra a "bratty meathead" Aang also had plenty of faults of his own, some arguably worse than Korra's. At least Korra always makes saving the world her top priority. Remember all the times Aang stopped to fuck around in the middle of a war?
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Post by The Gambler on Oct 6, 2014 19:16:34 GMT -5
Well they're very different people from very different cultural backgrounds. I think it's odd to berate Korra for reacting to a situation in a manner I think many teenage girls would while absolving Aang for acting like a young boy. These shows aren't about adults. They're about ways in which children would respond to crushing responsibility.
Either way, as I said, the discussion wasn't about which is he the better avatar, but rather which not had dealt with the more serious threats. I think Korra wins hands down, regardless of whether she did or did not handle them better than Aang.
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Post by Prince Orys Targaryen on Oct 7, 2014 0:21:01 GMT -5
Azula nearly killed Aang in the Avatar State, so its imortant not to downplay the threat of the Fire Nation during the series. But yes, Fire Hitler is probably not quite as bad as Antichrist, but considering Ozai's plan was unambiguously murdering half the planet and Unalaq's was... summoning spirit vines and... I confess, I'm not sure what his goal was past 'become God', but neither Vaatu or Unalaq, for all their histrionics, ever said, "Or we can just kill everybody." Potentially, yes, Unavaatu would have caused more damage in the long term, but unless his goal was the wholesale slaughter of the human race and not just domination over them, in the short term, Ozai still trumps him, and in terms of actually getting crap done, still lags far, far behind on the Fuck Up the World Scale.
And I have to disagree with a core argument you've mentioned here and in prior discussions. No, the Fire Nation did NOT get a free pass based on not having an Avatar around. Sozin's first step was killing Roku, and doing everything in his power to kill the next one. Could Aang have taken on a Sozin's Comet powered Fire Nation at that point? Perhaps next generation, he could try his luck against Azulon as he butchered the Water Tribe. That's a 50/50 chance of not being born on the wrong side of the planet during the next round of genocide...
At no point does Korra face a villain so vast or ruthless, with such a horrifying ideology. At no point does she even have to face hunger or the task of finding shelter.
Now, I will agree that "Wipe out bending"+"Ten thousand years of darkness"+"Anarchy"=A busy Avatar cycle", but I'm not sure we've seen Korra face a threat that couldn't be dealt with by just punching the right dude after a few episodes of probending or going door to door looking for Airbenders. I'm not interested in putting down Korra, and its noone's fault the story arcs are so short, but they have a tendency to push off the "Korra, the shit is going down NOW" scenes until later in the series. Except maybe the second book, which actually has Korra being proactive most of the season about defeating the baddie. (Though in the end, they kind of just wasted their time in Republic City and end up just going back alone to kick the crap out of Unalaq... who was lying RIGHT THERE on the ground in episode four!)
Anyway, again, no, I don't Korra's life is that much harder than Aang's in any meaningful way. Her people and friends are still all alive and she's never gone homeless, and really, she's never LOST anything. A few years in a wheelchair is rough, but she's still the chieftain's daughter and friends with the ruling elite.
Actually, on a related note, is anyone else concerned noone who isn't a villain has died the entire series in LOK?
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Post by Morys Martell on Oct 7, 2014 1:19:45 GMT -5
Didn't vaatu kinda wipe out nearly all of the human race the last time he was allowed to roam free? And that was when humans had a pretty good idea about how spirits work and the lion turtles to offer some form of protection. Vaatu winning in this day and age, with a human race completely unprepared, with no means of defending themselves, and no safe havens in the world they could go? It doesn't take stated intent to see how horrifying this would be. Ozai never said he wanted to kill half the planet outright, we inferred it through his actions. I don't see why all of a sudden, we change the criteria when measuring bad guys, other then favoritism. TBH aang defeating ozai, zuko + katara beating azula, and then all of a sudden everyone getting along hunky doory at the end? That's some really magical levels of luck aang had that the fire nation didn't just go "Oh, ozai and azula are defeated. Long Live Bujing, the new Fire Lord!" and continued the campaign as a rebellion. Probably how it would have gone, following the ledgend of korra conventions.
Also Jet seems to be the only person who has actually died, at least on screen as a recent death, in the entire avatar series who wasn't a villain. Everyone else is either captured, magic'd away, or dies of old age.
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Post by Prince Orys Targaryen on Oct 7, 2014 15:47:53 GMT -5
Didn't vaatu kinda wipe out nearly all of the human race the last time he was allowed to roam free? Nope, though it's stated it was Vaatu who broke through the barrier between worlds. And that was when humans had a pretty good idea about how spirits work and the lion turtles to offer some form of protection. In Beginnings, humanity is still ignorant. Contrary to Unalaq's claims, I don't think humans and spirits EVER got along. Vaatu winning in this day and age, with a human race completely unprepared, with no means of defending themselves, and no safe havens in the world they could go? They actually are quite prepared. It only took one badass bender in an age without badass benders the first time. Now we have a planet of them, plus nw technologies. Obviously, we'll never see how it would have gone down, but I don't buy the notion that Unavaatu beating the Avatar automatically constitutes 'game over for humanity'. It doesn't take stated intent to see how horrifying this would be. Ozai never said he wanted to kill half the planet outright, we inferred it through his actions. He totally said that. I don't see why all of a sudden, we change the criteria when measuring bad guys, other then favoritism. TBH aang defeating ozai, zuko + katara beating azula, and then all of a sudden everyone getting along hunky doory at the end? That's some really magical levels of luck aang had that the fire nation didn't just go "Oh, ozai and azula are defeated. Long Live Bujing, the new Fire Lord!" and continued the campaign as a rebellion. Probably how it would have gone, following the ledgend of korra conventions. Also Jet seems to be the only person who has actually died, at least on screen as a recent death, in the entire avatar series who wasn't a villain. Everyone else is either captured, magic'd away, or dies of old age. As for the rest of it, I actually agree 100%, especially how easily the Fire Nation accepted defeat. |
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Post by The Gambler on Oct 7, 2014 17:33:23 GMT -5
Once again, the point was that I feel Korra has already had a far more trying Avatar cycle, not that her villains were necessarily worse than Ozai. Individually, what Ozai accomplished is worse than any of Korra's villains individually hands down. With intent taken into account Unalaq might tie him, though one could make the case that Amon trying to making bending nonexistant is a form of cultural genocide. But, the combination of the three villains makes for a far worse time than I feel Aang had. Aang had one extremely trying year. Korra spent a year dealing with Amon and Unalaq, which combined I think makes for worse than what Aang delt with as she lost her bending, had all her past lives erased, and enjoyed what must have been an excruciating moment in Raava being torn apart and devoured. Then, immediately following this year of shit, she has to deal with the Red Lotus and being put in a wheelchair for three years. Now she gets to deal with Kuvira. So that's 5-6 years of shit in comparison to Aang's 1.
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Post by Morys Martell on Oct 7, 2014 18:23:07 GMT -5
How does bending attainment work in the avatar world anyway? Like, can any on learn any type of bending, or is there some sort of spiritual predisposition to what kind of bender you become? Like, has there ever been a water bender from the fire nation or a earth bender from the water tribes?
Im just curious and too lazy to look it up myself. Also mako and bolin being different benders is kinda confusing imo.
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Post by Prince Orys Targaryen on Oct 7, 2014 20:04:27 GMT -5
Once again, the point was that I feel Korra has already had a far more trying Avatar cycle, not that her villains were necessarily worse than Ozai. Individually, what Ozai accomplished is worse than any of Korra's villains individually hands down. With intent taken into account Unalaq might tie him, though one could make the case that Amon trying to making bending nonexistant is a form of cultural genocide. But, the combination of the three villains makes for a far worse time than I feel Aang had. Aang had one extremely trying year. Korra spent a year dealing with Amon and Unalaq, which combined I think makes for worse than what Aang delt with as she lost her bending, had all her past lives erased, and enjoyed what must have been an excruciating moment in Raava being torn apart and devoured. Then, immediately following this year of shit, she has to deal with the Red Lotus and being put in a wheelchair for three years. Now she gets to deal with Kuvira. So that's 5-6 years of shit in comparison to Aang's 1. I think my point is, aside from my responses to Morys, until Korra loses her loved ones and spends a year homeless in the middle of a war, it doesn't really matter. It's that feeling of hopelessness I'm trying to emphasize, that idea that someone has already lost, and starts at the bottom, that consequences are brutal. Korra never really faces that. Losing her bending? She's the Avatar, she can just give it back to herself after a few days. Loss of past lives? I agree, that's a huge loss, but they're all already dead, so it could be worse. Wheelchair for a few years... yeah... but half her friends are world leaders, and noone really died except baddies. Would you rather be a famous probender, child of waterbending royalty, friends with half the world's ruling elite, or would you like to be the last airbender roaming the countryside fleeing magic Nazis and bearing a hundred years of guilt for every crappy thing you see? |
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Post by Varryn Targaryen on Oct 7, 2014 21:33:28 GMT -5
How does bending attainment work in the avatar world anyway? Like, can any on learn any type of bending, or is there some sort of spiritual predisposition to what kind of bender you become? Like, has there ever been a water bender from the fire nation or a earth bender from the water tribes? Im just curious and too lazy to look it up myself. Also mako and bolin being different benders is kinda confusing imo. [Opinion Time] It's hereditary. Bolin and Mako's mom was a firebender, which also leads me to believe that that's why Bolin has lavabending- fire/earth parents. I like to think that that's the only way people can have it, and even then it's rare. It's the most logical way. |
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Post by Morys Martell on Oct 7, 2014 21:37:14 GMT -5
I am planning my airbender to have been from a prestigious line of earth benders be for harmonic convergence, and that his bending affiliation marks him as being cursed and a ill omen to his family. So yeah, kinda like opal.
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Post by Varryn Targaryen on Oct 7, 2014 21:39:09 GMT -5
I like it. I'm going for Sandbender former King of Omashu, prior or because of the convergence.
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Post by Prince Orys Targaryen on Oct 7, 2014 22:18:32 GMT -5
1. Originally, from lion turtles. What fascinates me is that potentially, there are other elements that can be bent, we've just only ever seen five so far.
2.Traditionally, you inherit it, though it often skips generations.
3. Harmonic Convergence... which is a bit of a cheap device by the writers as it's never explained, but oh well. I'm annoyed we never see someone discover they suddenly have firebending or something besides airbending.
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Post by Varryn Targaryen on Oct 8, 2014 0:19:50 GMT -5
I'm sure we'll see it this season, but the point of last season WAS 'omg hey airbenders'
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Post by Morys Martell on Oct 8, 2014 15:07:06 GMT -5
Hope you guys get the reference.  For those who don't: |
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Post by Prince Orys Targaryen on Oct 8, 2014 16:05:10 GMT -5
Oh God... the movie was atrocious and kind of offensive to boot.
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Post by The Gambler on Oct 8, 2014 16:35:56 GMT -5
Think we're still arguing 2 completely different things. Aang never faced anything he couldn't solve with the avatar state "easy button." Korra faced adversaries that not only could go toe to toe with avatar state but made it a liability.
It's also worth noting that after his one year of hardship Aang was also friends with the ruling elite in each nation. The difference is that comparatively he had things easy after his one ordeal whereas Korra deals with crisis after crisis.
As or why harmonic convergence only created more airbenders, I think the idea is that it restored balance in the world. There were not airbenders, yet plenty of each of the other nations, so it creates a new race of airbenders to compensate.
For lava bending it seems a firebender or earthbender could potentially learn it. Sozin is seen briefly manipulating lava on Roku's island and it can't be a coincidence that so many fire nation buildings are built over magma. It's probably like metalbending or bloodbending: more of unlocking it mentally by saying "it's just liquid earth or viscous fire" in the same way realizing there are bits of earth in metal and water in blood allowed folks to unlock those specialties.
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Post by Prince Orys Targaryen on Oct 8, 2014 16:53:25 GMT -5
Think we're still arguing 2 completely different things. Aang never faced anything he couldn't solve with the avatar state "easy button." Korra faced adversaries that not only could go toe to toe with avatar state but made it a liability. It's also worth noting that after his one year of hardship Aang was also friends with the ruling elite in each nation. The difference is that comparatively he had things comparatively easy after his one ordeal whereas Korra deals with crisis after crisis. Ehhh... I've run out of steam for this discussion.  Though since you bring it up, I gotta admit... I do like how the writers have done their best to avoid abusing the Avatar State in both series. Aang loses it just when he starts to understand it. Korra doesn't unlock it until after Amon is defeated. The next two baddies are either just as powerful or are relying on her to use it. I hope Aranya has some epic threats for Zhu, too.  |
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Post by The Gambler on Oct 8, 2014 17:04:56 GMT -5
So we have 1 earthbender, 1 one firebender, 1 waterbender, and the avatar so far right? That's a pretty good mix.
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Post by The Gambler on Oct 8, 2014 17:57:57 GMT -5
I've never seen each incarnation of the avatar as Wan, but rather the reincarnation of Raava in a new human host. I'm not sure what canon bits you're talking about that support or contradict this, but I think the fact that Vaatu just calls the Avatar by Raava should give that away. It's like how the dalai lama is the reincarnation of the spirit of compassion, Avalokitesvara, rather than the repeated reincarnation of the first dalai lama. That's clearly what they took their inspiration from. It's Raava that reincarnates, but brings with her a connection to the spirits of her past hosts that the new avatar can draw wisdom from. The spirits of the past avatars reside within her but aren't her, if that makes any sense. That's why the avatars talk about their past lives rather than Wan as their single past life. Even the definition for the word avatar makes that pretty obvious in my mind: "a manifestation of a deity in bodily form on earth; an incarnate divine teacher." It's the manifestation of Raava in bodily form. When she told Wan that her and him were now one, I feel she was saying that she was now tethered to a human form rather than Wan specifically. Otherwise, the loss of the connection to Wan's spirit should have ended the avatar cycle. The thing that bothers me is why there isn't a reincarnation of the Dark Avatar now? Since Vaatu bonded with Unalaq, upon his death shouldn't a new dark avatar have been born as his host?  |
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Post by The Gambler on Oct 8, 2014 19:35:15 GMT -5
That doesn't support the idea that they're Wan but that they're a continued reincarnation of the same spirit. Once again, it's just like the Dalai Lama. The past lives are all connected but they're not the same person. They also had Aang pick from toys as a baby to prove he was the Avatar which belonged to numerous different avatars. They do the same to find the new Dalai Lama. It shows a connection to the past life. They are the same person and at the same time they aren't. They're the embodiment of the independent spirit that manifested within all the previous incarnations. The spirits of all these individuals are connected through Raava but that doesn't make them the same person. It's multiple souls inhabiting one spirit rather than just Wan's. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to sever Raava from Wan's spirit with the Avatar cycle intact, which we obviously saw happen. I don't think the writers are being contradictory at all. They seem to be sticking to their original concept and obvious inspiration. Wan's spirit inhabits Raavas so all avatars are Wan in the sense that all avatars after Kyoshi are her or all avatars after Roku are him.
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Post by Nyessos Qhaedar on Oct 8, 2014 20:51:04 GMT -5
So we have 1 earthbender, 1 one firebender, 1 waterbender, and the avatar so far right? That's a pretty good mix. There's also Morys as an Airbender, and Me as a "Still stuck between a Waterbender and a Metalbender" |
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Though since you bring it up, I gotta admit...
all alone and also really bored 
Hopefully going to kickstart the festival too
Jul 3, 2014 12:43:09 GMT -5