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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2014 12:38:26 GMT -5
I thought I'd just make a thread about this, since I know the admins are busy this weekend and I haven't seen them in chat, but I feel we should address this issue before the Summer Islands RP continues. I read the thread a couple days ago and it seems like the culture is being portrayed as far more primitive and stereotypically Orientalist than it is in the books, with infantilized speech patterns ("me no speak good") and general ignorance, suspicion, and living like a primitive tribe. In the books, the Summer Islanders we meet are articulate, well-spoken, intelligent, and dressed like in a way that suggests their civilization is no more primitive than Westeros or the Free Cities. Even when they come from the "lower rungs" of society, such as Chataya the brothel madam, they're not portrayed as barbarians. And shouldn't be, considering they seem to have a pretty advanced economy that trades with the rest of the world, and an educated nobility. We also see a female ship captain named Koja in the books, who is very assertive and articulate and not all like the like Koja character I read in the Summer Islands thread. Even if Daenya and Adara landed in the uneducated boonies of the Summer Islands, where the locals don't speak the Common Tongue, there's a big difference between portraying intelligent, articulate people who can't express themselves in the Common Tongue, and portraying people who are simply stupid and barbaric. Look at how Khal Drogo is portrayed in his interactions with Dany. They don't share a common language, but it's clear that Dany realizes how intelligent and confident Drogo is, and respects him. Even though the Dothraki actually are more "barbaric" than any other culture in this world. I know this was not intentional at all, of course. I just thought I'd mention it because it's something we should keep in mind if we continue to RP non-white characters as our dragons travel beyond Westeros and the Free Cities.  |
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Maekar
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Post by Maekar on Feb 9, 2014 12:42:40 GMT -5
Yeah, I was kinda noticing that as well, the Summer Islanders all talk like "Me Tarzan, you Jane," which is completely anachronistic to the way they're portrayed in the books, or even how foreigners act now. Think about meeting someone from a different country; the might mangle your language's pronunciation, or have an accent that is unintelligible, or lapse back into their own language as they speak to you, but I've never met anyone, whether they spoke English or didn't, who use those kind of speech patterns like we're seeing in that thread.
Realistically, if they just landed in some boondocks Summer Island village, nobody in the village would speak Westerosi at all, and since neither Daenya or Adara have language skills so far as I can tell, you'd have to try and emote to each other, or hope there was that one person in the village who had travelled and spoke fluent Westerosi, right?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2014 13:06:19 GMT -5
I agree with the speech thing, however regarding the primitive thing - I assume this is a small village in comparison to bigger places in the Summer Isles. Obviously the people who live more in the wild and away from the general civilization are going to be more suspicious of strangers than those that live in cities. Same goes for small towns and villages in Westeros or anywhere else.
The Summer Island people we see in the books are probably from the bigger settlements in the islands, which have more contact with outsiders, unless of course they are part of the unfortunate people pulled into slavery.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2014 13:09:10 GMT -5
Of course, and I allowed for that in my OP too. There is definitely an argument for that. I think it's the degree of ignorance and child-like thinking that is the issue here, however. Compare them to how the wildlings of Westeros interact. They are the hicks/rednecks of Westeros, but they're still significantly more complex, even though they're as xenophobic and ignorant. Again, I want to emphasize that I'm not accusing anyone of doing this intentionally. I know for a fact that it wasn't intentional. Just something we want to be aware about and change. |
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Post by Vhagar on Feb 9, 2014 13:10:39 GMT -5
Ok I'm sorry, I have no clue how to depict speech patterns of non native speakers so I clearly screwed it up. The point I was trying, and clearly failing to make, was that these aren't the people in the trading cities, many of whom would speak the Common Tongue very well, as they do in the books. But Daenya hasn't got there yet so I was attempting to depict a small village. Clearly that was a mistake.
My intention was that once Daenya got to one of the main towns she'd find all the usual places, temples, inns, markets, etc, as well as a royal court. I certainly wasn't intending them to be portrayed as primitive or anything, I just didn't want to have Daenya conveniently land right in the main town or something easy. It seems like I handled it badly.
If this is going to cause a problem I'm not sure I should be the one handling it because I feel really awful now. I thought it would be fun to explore the customs, invent their royal family and be a bit creative in terms of their big towns but at this point it doesn't seem like it will be much fun if I am going to be worrying about what I write all the time.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2014 13:12:31 GMT -5
Don't feel awful, Marie! The point was absolutely not to make you feel guilty (that's why I kept trying to talk to you about this in private chat earlier haha) - I totally love you and think you're awesome at admin-ing NPCs. I understand the reasoning behind your decision and I also understand it's a tricky, fine line. There's no harm done, but in the future it might just be easier to RP the urban Summer Islanders and it'll give you less of a headache when you feel uncertain about how to portray them. |
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Post by Vhagar on Feb 9, 2014 13:17:16 GMT -5
Yeah we may need to fast forward a bit, I think. I'll fix up the speech patterns. I'm now reminded why I so rarely attempt such things. I just can't do it right. Kesi, however, does it remarkably well with her character.
I'm going to go back and edit the speech patterns to be more normal and keep it that way from now on.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2014 13:19:13 GMT -5
Haha sure Thanks dear. And don't worry about it anymore. Love you to pieces, you're great. |
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Maekar
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Post by Maekar on Feb 9, 2014 13:23:01 GMT -5
It's difficult to RP someone whose culture and language is completely different from yours. I think it might be easier if the majority of Summer Islanders, at least in this boondocks section, couldn't communicate at all except for those few characters that are actually just fluent in Westerosi. Like really, if they're the SI equivalent of peasants, what reason would they have to speak even a broken version of a foreign language? I imagine the merchants and ship captains would be more able to communicate, since they travel for business and have to deal with foreigners on a regular basis.
So maybe the majority of them just can't communicate with Daenya (unless she learns their language, of course), and there's a few who are fluent in Westerosi to the point where the can speak normally to her and Adara?
I don't imagine Adara needs words to communicate anyway, she can just go up to a man and I'm sure he'll figure out what she wants haha.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2014 13:24:10 GMT -5
Good idea, Maekar. Or Daenya can roll her skills to persuade an urban Summer Islander to travel with her as a translator or something.
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Maekar
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Post by Maekar on Feb 9, 2014 13:25:51 GMT -5
Hiring a translator would make a lot of sense.
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Post by Vhagar on Feb 9, 2014 13:28:17 GMT -5
Adara's needs are relatively simple and easily communicated.
My thought was that the 2 sisters can communicate in the Common Tongue due to their slightly higher status and some travel experience. I said that their father, the head of the village, can't speak the Common Tongue at all, and probably most of the village can't.
The current scene is a prelude to the main towns, of course.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2014 13:29:25 GMT -5
Hiring a translator would make a lot of sense. Yeah, when I travel I totally like to hire a translated myself. Adara's needs are relatively simple and easily communicated. My thought was that the 2 sisters can communicate in the Common Tongue due to their slightly higher status and some travel experience. I said that their father, the head of the village, can't speak the Common Tongue at all, and probably most of the village can't. The current scene is a prelude to the main towns, of course. Sure, that might work. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2014 13:39:45 GMT -5
Hiring a translator would make a lot of sense. Yeah, when I travel I totally like to hire a translated myself. Oh, then maybe you can hire me in the future bc that's who I'm gonna be. A translated. |
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Erik
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Post by Erik on Feb 9, 2014 13:46:18 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2014 13:49:56 GMT -5
Loool I totally saw this gif coming. I think I spend too much time on the Internet. You know it's bad when you start anticipating the exact gifs and memes. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2014 13:58:05 GMT -5
Look at Maekar, editing our posts to correct his typo. Who died and made you king, huh?
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Maekar
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Post by Maekar on Feb 9, 2014 14:05:49 GMT -5
Well they haven't died YET, but it's in the works  Besides, all I correct was my own typo lol |
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Post by The Gambler on Feb 9, 2014 17:12:43 GMT -5
The situation is being handled. Next time there's a concern of this nature, let's bring it to admin/mod attention via pm first.
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all alone and also really bored